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ValleyFair Beating Suspects Show Up Late For Sentencing
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Post ValleyFair Beating Suspects Show Up Late For Sentencing 
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/52480822.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUac8HEaDiaMDCinchO7DU

The men who beat a father at ValleyFair into unconsciousness couldn't even be bothered to show up on time for their own sentencing, arriving an hour late along with their families. Even with that contemptuous attitude toward the court, they still only received about 4 months each for the savage attack.

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Must be nice to be a minority.

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Oh Jesus. Really?

These guys are creeps. What they did is wretched. Our prisons are over-crowded and we try to solve all of society's ills by putting people in cages, and then complain when that doesn't seem to fix any problems. What does their being minorities have to do with any of this?

The racism around here is getting really hard to stomach. You can condemn these a-holes for their barbaric behavior without making it a race thing. If they were white thugs, would you be saying it must be nice to be white?

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I don't think their race is relevant at all. In fact, the story notes that the man they attacked and nearly killed was black himself.

What I get from the story is a group of young thugs with children scattered all over the landscape and no remorse or acceptance of guilt for what they did at all. Their failure to even show up on time for their own sentencing is simply another example of the contempt that they show for our society and our legal system.

There's no reason to believe that they are at all interested in changing their worldview based on their actions and lifestyle. Those who are not open to appeals of reason or morality leave us little choice but to curb their predatory urges by acquainting them with the concept of raw fear of consequences. I personally don't think that the prospect of backbreaking labor from sunup to sundown, followed by a much needed night's sleep in spartan quarters, is too much to ask, considering that most of the human race for most of recorded history simply considered that to be making a living. That's the least these thugs owe society, and might provide some measure of restitution to their victim.

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I agree that cages are the wrong solution here.

$10 worth of rope and the nearest tree. Whatever their race, it's not human in the case of these particular guys.

They bothered a girl they had no business bothering. When her dad came to her defense, they nearly killed him.

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dorajar wrote:
Oh Jesus. Really?

These guys are creeps. What they did is wretched. Our prisons are over-crowded and we try to solve all of society's ills by putting people in cages, and then complain when that doesn't seem to fix any problems. What does their being minorities have to do with any of this?

The racism around here is getting really hard to stomach. You can condemn these a-holes for their barbaric behavior without making it a race thing. If they were white thugs, would you be saying it must be nice to be white?


A number of things here.

First, yes, really.

I most assuredly agree about our penal system. We have this weird hybrid system born of two beliefs. One belief being that people can be punished for doing things they shouldn't and then swayed back to norm and re-distributed in to society as a normal, law abiding citizen. The other belief being that criminals will always be criminals and we should look on them as such. The punishments from the latter negate any chance of the former being successful. See felonies for further reading.

What them being minorities has to do with it is that white people would've had the hammer of god come down on them had they shown such disregard for the judicial system. Now that being said, in all honesty I'm not really convinced their race had anything to do with it. What I am doing is trying out a new tactic. Playing the race card whenever I can. Quite frankly it does leave a sickly feel in my stomach, I'm not really sure how people can do this on a daily basis.

Now if they were white I would be flying off the handle going, "WTF? How the hell did they get by with such a light sentence? Are they rich or something?" In similar fashion to how I flew off the handle when Martha Stewart received her joke of a punishment. At this point I can't ask that because the perpetrators are black and "as we all know(tm)" blacks are at a disadvantage in society so the possibility of them being rich is negligable.

But then again, I'm still waiting to hear a story of a gang of white pedophiles curb stomping a father for defending his daughter.

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praecorloth wrote:


But then again, I'm still waiting to hear a story of a gang of white pedophiles curb stomping a father for defending his daughter.


You'll never hear that story, because white people are perfect. We have no pedophiles, mass murderers, bigots, misogynists, ignoramuses, or ruffians of any kind. We are the Chosen Race. Obviously.

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By the way, and not that it matters.

But the attackers and the victim are all black.

An amazing contrast with this story is on page 2 of my newspaper's local edition, where a drunk driver involved in a crash where no one was hurt, was given 5 years in prison.

One guy is almost blind and the thugs are given a slap on the wrist, home monitoring, and credit for time served.

The contrast between crimes and punishments is often amazing.

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"I most assuredly agree about our penal system. We have this weird hybrid system born of two beliefs. One belief being that people can be punished for doing things they shouldn't and then swayed back to norm and re-distributed in to society as a normal, law abiding citizen. The other belief being that criminals will always be criminals and we should look on them as such. The punishments from the latter negate any chance of the former being successful. See felonies for further reading. "
-Prae

There's a very long discussion there. Actually, the potential for a library full of books debating the different approaches.

To me, there's one pretty basic division.

One group of people may have committed "missteps", perhaps related to negligent upbringing or a lack of percieved opportunity for self improvement. Most of these commit economic crimes. If diverted at a young age, they may be amenable to reform and a different and more postive life path. These are the people in which we should invest our time and effort.

The second group is different. They are vicious, violent people who prey on others in particularly heinous ways, and for their own profit. I would include people who commit crimes of needless or particularly vicious and sadistic brutality, those who work out their own twisted sexual fetishes on their victims, and those who particularly target the old, the young and disabled for their victims. These people, in my view, are unrepentant sociopaths who are utterly selfish and have no remorse whatever for their crimes. THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT. Those are the ones that we shouldn't bother trying to rehabilitate, but instead need to take out of society for as long as the law allows and only provide them with the basic necessities of life. Even a not too bright cow or dog will learn to avoid the electric fence when it learns of the harsh jolt it will receive when it attempts to cross a non-negotiable boundary. These human animals will only respond to same.


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They look like such nice boys



also http://www.startribune.com/local/25472764.html?location_refer=Homepag


I never heard the story about why they were late to court by the way.

I have never been late to court for a speeding ticket. What kind of moron shows up late when you're being charge for violent crimes that have left a father potentially blinded and which involve alleged sexual assaults on a 12 year old girl?

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Post Teen Gets 7 Years In Beating 
http://www.startribune.com/local/52526567.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUs

Guess it all depends on what prosecutor and judge you get.

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dorajar wrote:
praecorloth wrote:


But then again, I'm still waiting to hear a story of a gang of white pedophiles curb stomping a father for defending his daughter.


You'll never hear that story, because white people are perfect. We have no pedophiles, mass murderers, bigots, misogynists, ignoramuses, or ruffians of any kind. We are the Chosen Race. Obviously.


Or you can try your hand at ad hominem arguments, but they really don't bring anything to the table.

It's rather hilarious. I suspected, perhaps in a less than ideal manner, NAY even poor manner, that these fuckwads got off with a joke of a sentence because they were black. This alone apparently paints me as racist. Why is that? If I suspect that there is some race bias in an institution, wouldn't it be preferable to call it out? But I suppose it wouldn't be if the race bias is in favor of a minority. Apparently we're not after equality.

What I meant by the comment that you decided to be sarcastic about was that white pedophiles tend to only group together online. One rarely, if ever, sees a group of pedophiles enjoying their favorite past time. However when you do see a white pedophile busted just for say pictures on a computer, that white pedophile has the book thrown at them. As well they should, though there is more I would love to tack on to that which all has to do with pedo-laws, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

Now we have a group of black pedophiles. Or at the very least one black pedophile with a bunch of friends who seem all too willing to back up his sickness. They rather violently beat the every loving shit out of a father who defended his daughter against said pedophile, then they decided that they were going to display just how much they don't give a shit about the judicial system by casually strolling in an hour after their scheduled court hearing. 4 months.

Other people get smacked down for pedophilia. Other people get smacked down for committing gang violence. Other people get smacked down for not appearing in court at their designated time.

4 months. Why am I the bad guy here for wanting justice? Quite frankly I'm sick of having to explain myself to people like you. If you can't see that there is some serious injustice going on here, then something is seriously wrong with you. Pedophilia. Aggravated assault. Contempt of court. Just over a month of time served for all of them.



thrice wrote:

There's a very long discussion there. Actually, the potential for a library full of books debating the different approaches.


Oh I agree whole heartedly. I was just trying to sum up quickly how I feel about our judicial system. There does need to be a way to deal with people in the sort of two categories that you describe. However we don't do that. We have misdemeanors and we have felonies. You would think that felonies would apply to the second group that you mention. But no. You yourself may be a felon right at this moment and not even know it. But putting aside the sheer number of acts that can label you a felon, let's take a look at some obvious felonies. Grand theft auto. It's not just a fun game anymore. Some dumb kid of 18 years gets together with his dumb friends and decide to take a joy ride in someone else's car. They're arrested, processed and do their time. But they're all felons. Now let's say our dumb kid learns his lesson and grows up to be a man of 40 years, having lived within the boundaries of the law this entire time. Despite the fact that he is now more than twice the age he was when he committed the crime, having lived a lawful citizen's life, he's still a felon. There are some things he can do to try to get some of his rights back, but there's no guarantee. What is guaranteed is he is a felon and this fact must follow him around until they put him in the ground.

In that scenario the person learned his lesson early on and decided to live a lawful life. But if there is no guaranteed path back to equal citizenship, a lot of people are just going to say, "Fuck it. I'm a second class citizen for the rest of my life. I may as well do whatever I want now."

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"...none of the men had jobs, most had small children and only two had graduated from high school or earned a G.E.D...."

These bozos are setting world-records for achievement. Let's be sure they stay out of jail so that they can produce a few more kids before they die in some thug versus thug dispute.


Here's the real criminal in this situation.

The one man Society expects to consider all the facts and then do What Is Right.

Though state sentencing guidelines call for a maximum sentence of one year and one day in prison, Perkins told the courtroom that a stayed sentence with probation would be more beneficial to the men**


Judge Richard C. Perkins

http://www.mncourts.gov/?page=JudgeBio_v2&ID=30057

Why is this man smiling?



Because he's got a job where it pretty much doesn't matter what he does, and he's going to keep getting paid and re-elected. Because the citizens have no clue what they're voting for when the elect or re-elect a judge.

Oh, and he ordered them to "undergo empathy training" damn this guy is the 2nd coming of Jesus for sure.

** This will allow them to be out of jail before Valleyfair closes for the season

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"But putting aside the sheer number of acts that can label you a felon, let's take a look at some obvious felonies. Grand theft auto. It's not just a fun game anymore. Some dumb kid of 18 years gets together with his dumb friends and decide to take a joy ride in someone else's car. They're arrested, processed and do their time. But they're all felons. Now let's say our dumb kid learns his lesson and grows up to be a man of 40 years, having lived within the boundaries of the law this entire time. Despite the fact that he is now more than twice the age he was when he committed the crime, having lived a lawful citizen's life, he's still a felon. There are some things he can do to try to get some of his rights back, but there's no guarantee. What is guaranteed is he is a felon and this fact must follow him around until they put him in the ground. "


-Praecorloth

And that's the kind of "economic" crime that I mentioned, Prae. And no, it doesn't have to follow him around for life (assuming he's one of the few that actually get charged for driving a stolen car )Rolling Eyes

People who commit minor felonies and then live generally law abiding lives can request pardons or explungements of their records from courts. If they can show that the act was an aberration and their lives are otherwise decent over time, they're not very hard to get.

Frankly I think the stigma of a felony record is very overrated. For the simple labor jobs that many uneducated felons do, most employers could care less. I've worked side by side with numerous convicted felons. I know a guy who did 10 years for murder who's now a successful building contractor (a basically nice guy who accidentally killed somebody in a drunken rage while going after someone else). And even in other professions, it's not a huge obstacle in many cases. We have numerous doctors and lawyers practicing in Minnesota who have felony convictions, and it doesn't seem to have cramped their style or bankbooks much.

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Preacor, I'm just having a hard time here. I'm having a hard time understanding your contention that these guys got off lightly because of their race. I've never, ever heard of black criminals getting lighter sentencing than their white counterparts for identical crimes. What I've heard of time and time again is the opposite. Google "problems with the death penalty" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I'm not defending these guys or their actions or saying they deserved light sentencing. I'm saying nothing in this case has anything to do with their race. They did something heinous. The sentencing was probably too light. But would a year or two made any difference in their remorse or rehabilitation? Probably not. So much is so broken.

Last night a white guy walked in to an L.A. Fitness and shot at a room full of women. Will we hear a word about his race or its impact on his obvious mental illness? Nope. I guarantee it.

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The connection I'm making is that a judge didn't want to rock the boat. So he made the sentencing lighter. But X was able to find a nice quote from the judge that proves that he made the sentencing decision because he's retarded.

Was their sentencing too light? This is a question to you? Seriously? And just because the system is broken doesn't mean that these jackholes should get to beat someone within an inch of their life and get off with 4 damned months. There is no probably here. This judge needs to be brought up on charges of endangering the public. These freaks of nature need to be locked away for good.

As for the L.A. Fitness shooting, actually we are hearing quite a bit about his mental state from years leading up to the shooting. All out of his blog. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32292246/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/ Now they don't mention his race. But the only mention of race in the Valley Fair issue is a mention of people freaking out thinking that the victim was white.



But there is an important paragraph that I didn't articulate well that I think deserves some attention. So let me try to re-articulate it.

I suspected in a poor manner that perhaps a bleeding heart judge or prosecutor was behind the piss poor sentence these people received. Whether it was due to not wanting to seem racist against the offenders or because they thought they were doing some sort of greater good, whatever. I suspected it.

Because I suspected it, you immediately hopped in with the racism card. Why? You don't have to answer to me, but really look at why you did that. Was it a knee jerk reaction based on some of my previous posts that caused you to shut out anything I said against blacks? Not that anyone would hold that against you, I'll admit I'm certainly not the most race-tolerant person on this forum. But was that the core reason?

If it is, I urge you to think a little further on it. Is it possible that you read stories in a similar light? Remembering specifically where blacks have been over-harshly punished and whites have gotten off the hook? I think you may be doing that with this story now. There is no reason what so ever that these people should've gotten off with 4 months sentence, but you keep tip-toeing around it. It doesn't seem to invoke any kind of rage or sense of injustice. And I'd be willing to bet that a number of months from now, maybe a year or so, something will trigger your memory about this story and the only thing you'll remember is that some jackhole on a forum was spouting racist crap. You probably won't even remember roughly what was said. And no one would blame you there, it was a small post of 7 words. Were those 7 words really racist?

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Actually I just talked to my mother about this story, and she thinks there's racism going on in this trial. But it's different from my perspective, possibly because she remembers this stuff from back in the day. But she put forth the idea, what if it is a different kind of racism that we're not used to seeing these days? What if the prosecutor or judge or whoever decided that the victim, being black, was part of the problem. If the victim had been white or some other race that they approved of, then the "wheels of justice(tm)" would've started turning. If they thought a black committing a crime against a black, well that's no big deal. One less black in the world.

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thrice wrote:

And that's the kind of "economic" crime that I mentioned, Prae. And no, it doesn't have to follow him around for life (assuming he's one of the few that actually get charged for driving a stolen car )Rolling Eyes

People who commit minor felonies and then live generally law abiding lives can request pardons or explungements of their records from courts. If they can show that the act was an aberration and their lives are otherwise decent over time, they're not very hard to get.

Frankly I think the stigma of a felony record is very overrated. For the simple labor jobs that many uneducated felons do, most employers could care less. I've worked side by side with numerous convicted felons. I know a guy who did 10 years for murder who's now a successful building contractor (a basically nice guy who accidentally killed somebody in a drunken rage while going after someone else). And even in other professions, it's not a huge obstacle in many cases. We have numerous doctors and lawyers practicing in Minnesota who have felony convictions, and it doesn't seem to have cramped their style or bankbooks much.


Well this is good news then. I'll keep reading on it. I gotta say, felonies scare the crap out of me. Especially in places like New York where we're rapidly approaching jay-walking being a felony.

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praecorloth wrote:
Actually I just talked to my mother about this story, and she thinks there's racism going on in this trial. But it's different from my perspective, possibly because she remembers this stuff from back in the day. But she put forth the idea, what if it is a different kind of racism that we're not used to seeing these days? What if the prosecutor or judge or whoever decided that the victim, being black, was part of the problem. If the victim had been white or some other race that they approved of, then the "wheels of justice(tm)" would've started turning. If they thought a black committing a crime against a black, well that's no big deal. One less black in the world.



I think your mom may be on to something there. I considered that too. But ultimately, I'm back to the conclusion that the sentencing had nothing to do with race. Color me a cock-eyed optimist.

I jumped to accusations of racism because "must be nice to be a minority" struck me as terribly ignorant of the history of the confluence of minorities and the justice system. Maybe racist was the wrong word. Maybe it was just ignorance. Which is much more forgivable.

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citizenx wrote:
"...none of the men had jobs, most had small children and only two had graduated from high school or earned a G.E.D...."




But he's right. This is the problem. Don't you see that? This is the problem! These are angry, aimless, uneducated, unambitious, mean dudes. Their parents failed them, their culture failed them, the system failed them and they failed themselves. Prison isn't going to fix them. Whether they're in there for 4 months or 4 years. We keep trying to fix things by putting more and more people in prison. It's not working! You're treating a symptom. It's a waste of time. Yes, obviously, get dangerous people off the street. Please do. But in the meantime, figure out why suddenly 1 in every 3 people are dangerous. And fix THAT. Because paying corporations that are in the business of caging people up to build more and more cages ain't doing it.

My dad volunteers at the women's prison in Shakopee, teaching computer classes and job interviewing skills. You wouldn't believe the nonsense he has to go through, just to keep his volunteering privileges. They won't let him bring in a hard drive as an example, a teaching tool. They said he could bring in a picture of one. They won't let him offer internet access to women about to be released so that they can look for housing and jobs--you know, the kinds of things that might keep them from ending up behind bars again in 6 months. They're not interested in thinking about the "offenders" as people. When you treat people like "human animals" (as thrice described them), it's funny, but that's exactly how they end up behaving.

I'm not putting all the blame on the system. There's room for individual responsibility and cultural responsiblity, absolutely. And yes, some people are plain evil. But not nearly as many as we currently have locked up. We need to figure out the ROOT of the problem and start addressing that, instead of standing knee deep in a bog and swatting at mosquitos.

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^^

THAT'S the kinda talk we need. No sarcasm, no secret punch line. That's the stuff. Whole heartedly agree, especially about the prison system. It's full of fail. But note that you also mentioned a cultural problem that needs to be fixed. This is the sort of thing I believe it was X and I were getting at when we were discussing the failings of the black community in another thread. Not trying to send out a "gotcha" or "told ya so" post. Far from it. I'm fricken excited, I feel like we're all coming together and slowly getting on the same page.

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"When you treat people like "human animals" (as thrice described them), it's funny, but that's exactly how they end up behaving."

I would like to ask that if the quote be used, it be used in context. I provided a pretty concise description of the behavior of people I considered to be in that irretrievable sociopathic category. I did not extend that definition to all of those confined in correctional institutions, nor did I extend it to the men convicted in the Valley Fair assault. It was a general division I formulated to differentiate offenders who are amenable to rehab, and those who are not. Even their past records for drunk driving, brawling, illegal weapons possession, domestic assault and pimping don't quite qualify the ValleyFair Five for the exclusive "incorrigibles" club.

In fact, the kind of brutal beatdown that occurred at ValleyFair is a daily occurrence in the City of Minneapolis, sometimes multiple times. While it's disgusting and disturbing, it's far from extraordinary, and not extreme enough to fit the definition I offered of "human animal" offenders. Had it not been for the venue and circumstances of an attack on an innocent family group, it would never have even made the news.

Just wanted to clear that up.

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Fair enough.

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Post 4 months 
Wonder what sentences they'd have received if they'd been on time. Probation? Keys to the city?

This is the kind of crap that discredits the judicial system. This worthless judge should lose his job, be tarred and feathered and set adrift on the nearest log heading down the Mississippi. What a joke.

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