Minneapolis Finder Forum MN
RegisterSearchTutorialsMemberlistLog in
Reply to topic Page 1 of 1
Being gay and evangelical...
Author Message
Reply with quote
Post Being gay and evangelical... 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/12/us/12evangelical.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=a46b540825068ca1&hp&ex=1165986000&partner=homepage

Interesting article about Evangelical Christian Homosexuals, and their struggle to find peace within themselves and acceptance in their churches as they reconcile their sexual orientation with their faith.

Reply with quote
Post  
better a Gay Christian then a Gay Atheist. I have no idea why anyone would want to be gay or go out of their way to be gay but most HONEST people cant change their beliefs.

I cannot stop believing in God its a part of me, and I wasn't raised this way, and I have never belonged to any church.

In fact most of my atheist family look down on me because of my beliefs.

Reply with quote
Post  
Typical "agenda journalism" from the New York Times. What else does anyone expect from that rag?

The Torah is clear on what is sexual sin and what is not sexual sin. If someone wants to continue in sin while professing a belief in God, they can, but they are not living up to their beliefs.

That being said, that makes people who call themselves "gay" and "Christian" in the same breath no different from those who call themselves believers and yet continue to go on living an unrepentant life with other types of sin, such as engaging in extramarital sex (straight or gay), cursing like a drunken sailor, spreading falsehoods, lying to their spouse, stealing (even if it's just the occasional pen from the office), drinking to excess, abusing drugs, or whatever other sin you want to name.

Well, actually, there is one difference. Most of the people caught up in those other sins do so out of hardness of heart. Only with sexual sins like homosexuality do you have people blame their behavior on "being born that way."

Reply with quote
Post  
So much for Christ's dictates to accept everyone with open arms... Rolling Eyes

Craig, what about those homosexuals who are leading a celibate life? Are they still hypocrites if they call themselves evangelical?

Reply with quote
Post  
You assume I'm a mainstream Christian. I'm not.

You have to read the Torah and the Brit haDesha as a whole. One has no chance of understanding who Yeshua was without first understanding the Torah. Just because US culture has distilled Yeshua down to some vague "all love and acceptance" concept does not mean that's who he was.

That being said, I did not use the phrase, "hypocrites if they call themselves evangelicals." You did.

What I said was, people can call themselves whatever they want, but unless they live according to their beliefs, that label means nothing.

The word "beliefs" has been watered down in our culture. It gets applied to anything someone figures they kinda agree with. Beliefs are supposed to be the core of who you are, what shapes how you live your life.

But I did not single out the "Christian homosexual community" for not living in accordance with professed beliefs. Re-read my post; pretty much any believer is guilty of that.

"He who says he is without sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him."

So if the issue is that I singled out homosexuals on this issue, I did not. If the issue is that homosexuality is a sin, take it up with the Torah, not me.

We all have areas of sin with which we struggle daily. Should the murderer similarly excuse his or her sin because "they were born that way?" Should the alcoholic, the liar, the drug addict, the wife-beater, or anyone else?

We all sin. Those who struggle to repent and live a righteous life are at least showing signs they are making an effort to obey G-d's Torah. Those who excuse their sin ("Sure I tried to run that guy off the road, but he cut me off so he deserved it!") are not even trying.

Reply with quote
Post  
I'm afraid I don't understand the people who are Christian and actively gay. I'm not saying that as condemnation or critisism, I just really don't understand. The bible really is very, very clear about homosexual activity. The idea that homosexuality as it is understood today didn't exist back then just doesn't hold water as it's nonsense to think that people weren't homosexual and longing for relationships up until the modern times. I tend to think that a person who is gay and is also a Christian has been given a difficult cross to bear but is called to celebacy and a greater dependance on God as they continually turn to Him in the struggle to remain sexually pure. Sometimes what God asks us to do seems to be too much, but as the bible says, with God nothing is impossible. In a way I almost think that celebate homosexuals offer a very valuable witness of life being valuable even without the accoutraments of marriage and reproduction which we in this world place so much value on. I don't really feel comfortable telling other people how to live their lives, but I just don't see how one can claim that homosexual relationships are compatable with orthodox Christian beliefs.

Reply with quote
Post  
dorajar wrote:
So much for Christ's dictates to accept everyone with open arms... Rolling Eyes

Craig, what about those homosexuals who are leading a celibate life? Are they still hypocrites if they call themselves evangelical?



Christ never said to accept everyone with open arms. He did say however that if your hand makes you sin better to cut it off then to keep sinning. So I think gay christians, and child molesting christians would be better off being castrated.



Last edited by dbthinking on Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Reply with quote
Post  
rebeccat wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand the people who are Christian and actively gay. I'm not saying that as condemnation or critisism, I just really don't understand.


Word, rebeccat. I don't understand it either.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the Bible, the Torah, the Quran, what have you. Those of you who think this means I don't have a value system, or couldn't possibly be moral...well, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'm not going to change your mind about that, and you're not going to change mine.

I believe in my core that murder is wrong, because it is harmful to another being.
I believe in my core that drug abuse is wrong, because it is harmful to the body.
I believe in my core that alcoholism is wrong, because it is harmful to the body.
I believe in my core that beating your partner is wrong, because it is harmful to another being.
I believe in my core that lying is wrong, because it is harmful to another being.
I believe in my core that I was born gay, because I have never felt any differently than I do now and I never made any kind of conscious "choice", I never pursued a relationship with someone that didn't express mutual interest, and my sexuality is not harmful to my body.

Do I make mistakes in life? Of course, everyone does. Am I remorseful for them? Of course, anyone with humanity is. Do I try to learn from my mistakes? Of course, I want to be a valuable member of society.

I'm not perfect. Nobody is. But I know who I am and what I believe. My beliefs about life don't conflict with how I live my life. But I certainly didn't "edit" my beliefs to frame how I live my life.

If the Christian belief system claims that homosexuality is a choice - the wrong choice - and you subscribe to that belief system, then you'll have a hard time convincing me that you can honestly reconcile your beliefs to your lifestyle if you are a non-celibate homosexual. No harder a time than would be had by someone who committed adultery or any other violation of the Ten Commandments.

I would never say "Practice what you preach or don't preach it." To me, it's "Practice what you preach." Period.

Reply with quote
Post  
We have more common ground than you may think, NoMN.

Reply with quote
Post  
nomnice, actually Christianity doesn't say how people end up gay, although there are too many bone headed preachers who think they know. I don't think it's a choice myself, I just think that it's like any other drive or urge we may have that just comes naturally to us, be it an urge to something good, bad or in between. From a Christian point of view why a person is attracted to the same sex isn't (or should) be the point - it's what a person does with those urges. I think that the bible is pretty clear that homosexual attraction shouldn't translate into action. If one is not a Christian, well then one must figure out what course of action is best based on whatever moral code drives you. However, I don't think a person can honestly claim to be in line with scriptures and actively gay. At best they could say that they know they are out of line with scriptures, but just can't do what is demanded of them in this area. I suppose living with that would be very hard and even soul draining, so I think people make it easier by claiming things that just aren't true. Most people do that in difficult spots, it seems.
Anywho, some of the most moral people I have known have been atheists. I have actually been challenged and learned a lot from them. And with Christians making things like the "left Behind" video game, any sane person should choke trying to get the words "only Christians can be good moral people" to come out of their mouths.

Reply with quote
Post  
I've actually been giving a fair amount of thought to this topic lately and have some thoughts that may surprise some people.

I think the point has been made that those who wish - for whatever reasons - to stay in an active gay lifestyle and yet claim to be Christian are living a contradiction. And I've already made the point that there are plenty folks of "living a contradiction" in their own way to go around. It's not just the gay evangelical folks.

But as I think about it, I believe I need to take that a step further. I'm coming to the belief that the gay and lesbian community has been picked on just a bit too much by communities of faith. And I think I know why.

It's nothing deep or revolutionary. It's pretty basic, actually. It's this: it's always easier to point a finger at someone else than it is to examine yourself.

I think it's not too much of a stretch to say that among orthodox/conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist and other "really serious about it" communities of faith, there's not necessarily a very high percentage of folks who are struggling with same-sex attractions - those who do tend not to stick around, since those communities of faith are not an environment where such a lifestyle is supported and encouraged. (I'm not saying it's nonexistant, just a bit more rare.)

Given that, I think it's therefore easy for folks in those types of communities of faith to point fingers at the gay community in general, and gay evangelicals in particular, and holla "living a contradiction." Because, for them, it's not an area of temptation, by and large.

But here's the rub: if you could get most of them in an honest moment, you'd find out they have area of temptation that ARE a struggle for them and SOME are just as resistant to changing their ways, excusing their behavior and refusing to see the need for a change as any so-called "gay believer."

Okay, sure... some gay evangelicals are "in your face" - trying to get communities of faith to ordain gay clergy, perform gay marriages and such. That's presumptuous on their part.

But does that warrant all the finger-pointing, when the real issue is avoiding looking at oneself?

I think it's time for some communities of faith to stop the finger-pointing, and convert that energy into an effort to clean up the contradictions in their own lives.

There are church leaders, pastors, rabbis, deacons and whatever who have affairs, who gossip, who are impatient, prone to anger, lie, get drunk, visit strip clubs, etc. To quote Yeshua, "Remove the plank out of your own eye."

No one is immune to having areas of sin, areas of temptation, where they FREQUENTLY lose the struggle, or have even given up struggling against the sin, to the point where they feel it's just how they are and they can't stop.

So is it maybe time that we realize that while it's OK to stand up for truths, OK to defend beliefs when beliefs are under attack... that maybe it's time to devote some energy to being honest about our own unrepentant areas of sin and temptation?

I know some on this board will always see me in a certain light because of my beliefs, and think I never read what others write. Well, I do read what others write, in detail. I may not always agree, but I read it.

I've hesitated to reply to most of the threads that touch on gay issues, even though I have replied to some, like this one, precisely because I think it's all too easy for people to condemn folks who are caught in contradictions that THEY don't struggle with themselves, and far too often those same people don't look at the contradictions THEY are living out in THEIR lives.

I'm not saying communities of faith need to soften their stance on the moral code of the Bible. But I do think it could be applied a whole lot more evenly. There's not one person (other than Yeshua) who should be able to read the complete Torah and Brit haDesha without being made uncomfortable with how they are living their lives.

I know I've been having my own areas of sin brought to my attention more lately than in quite a while. I won't bore anyone with my list, but certainly if I just dig in in any of these areas and start saying, "I can't change, this is just how I am," then I have no room to talk about others living a contradiction... I'm living my own.

So, I don't know... Maybe I've started to ramble and lose my thesis statement for this post, but I think the best thing for me to do is take some time away from this thread and others relating to the gay lifestyle - to lead by example, perhaps - and work on sorting out the contradictions in my own life for a while.... and let others work on sorting out theirs, if they are so inclined.

I think we all have some contradictions in our lives.

I'll still be around in other topics and threads, but I'm personally sick of the "point at others without examining ourselves" dynamic threads like these seem to turn into.

Reply with quote
Post  
rebeccat wrote:
nomnice, actually Christianity doesn't say how people end up gay, although there are too many bone headed preachers who think they know. I don't think it's a choice myself, I just think that it's like any other drive or urge we may have that just comes naturally to us, be it an urge to something good, bad or in between. From a Christian point of view why a person is attracted to the same sex isn't (or should) be the point - it's what a person does with those urges. I think that the bible is pretty clear that homosexual attraction shouldn't translate into action. If one is not a Christian, well then one must figure out what course of action is best based on whatever moral code drives you. However, I don't think a person can honestly claim to be in line with scriptures and actively gay. At best they could say that they know they are out of line with scriptures, but just can't do what is demanded of them in this area. I suppose living with that would be very hard and even soul draining, so I think people make it easier by claiming things that just aren't true. Most people do that in difficult spots, it seems.
Anywho, some of the most moral people I have known have been atheists. I have actually been challenged and learned a lot from them. And with Christians making things like the "left Behind" video game, any sane person should choke trying to get the words "only Christians can be good moral people" to come out of their mouths.



Is it not possible to love your fellow man without wanting to have anal sex with him gay people should be put into the same category as child rapers.(perverts).

Why does a gay man think a mans anus is more pleasing then a womens.?

Display posts from previous:
Reply to topic Page 1 of 1
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum