CA: Sikhs, Muslims Fear Targeting By Hate Crimes

Do religions bring peace and harmony or war and chaos to our world?
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thrice
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CA: Sikhs, Muslims Fear Targeting By Hate Crimes

Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:15 am

Fatal shooting prompts outcry among Sikhs, Muslims
(AP) – 13 hours ago
WEST SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — The daily stroll had become routine for two elderly Sikh men in a Sacramento suburb, as well as for neighbors and friends accustomed to seeing the men walk by with their long beards and turbans.
But the traditional headwear might have singled them out late last week when they were gunned down, one fatally, in what police are investigating as a suspected hate crime. On Monday, local religious leaders pleaded for the community to come forward with leads but also said they will not be deterred by violence.
"Our community will continue to wear our turbans proudly," said Navi Kaur (NA'vee Kar), the granddaughter of Surinder Singh, 65, who died from his wounds.
His friend, 78-year-old Gurmej Atwal, remains in critical condition.
They were walking through their neighborhood in Elk Grove, just south of the capital, Friday afternoon when someone in what witnesses described as a pickup truck opened fire. Police said they have no suspects nor any indication the shooting was a hate crime, but said the turbans could have made the elderly men a target of extremists.
During a news conference Monday at a Sikh temple, a spokesman said the recent violence has scared some temple-goers into concealing any indicators of their religion.
Sikhs often are mistaken for Muslims and have been the subject of occasional violence across the country since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
"The enemies of the United States don't wear turbans in the United States," said Amar Shergill, a Sikh leader and attorney. "They don't want to be singled out. The result is that Sikh Americans since 9-11 have borne the brunt of violent hate crimes."
Sikhs draw particular attention because of their traditional beards and turbans, which are mistakenly associated with Islamic terrorists. Shergill said Monday also marked the start of a trial involving another possible hate crime against a Sikh.
He is the attorney for a Sikh cab driver beaten by passengers who shouted anti-Islamic slurs at him four months ago in West Sacramento.
The Elk Grove police department said last week's shooting would be the first targeting Sikhs in the city if it turns out to be a hate crime. Police also said they would meet with FBI officials, a routine move when a hate crime is suspected.
On Monday, they said they are looking for a tan or beige Ford F150 pickup truck made between 1999 and 2003. Meanwhile, a dozen groups have collected nearly $30,000 in reward money for information about the shootings.

dorajar
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Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:19 am

This is why Ellison and others are protesting the hearings on radical Islam. It's McCarthyism, and it propagates the belief that all Muslims are evil.

I wish a speedy recovery to the victim of this hate crime.

thrice
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Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:25 am

I think that's a gross oversimplification. As I understand it, the purpose of the hearings is very specific- examining efforts by terror organizations to radicalize and recruit Muslims living in the US in order to use them as operatives in domestic terror operations and overseas military conflicts, i.e. the Somali Civil War. If in fact that's the focus of the hearings, and if in fact creating cells within Western countries by radical Islamists is happening (which it obviously is), who should the hearings and investigations focus on? Nebraska born Lutherans?

Do we just pretend it's not happening and hope it will go away? Or does a prudent country look at the who, what and why, and try to come up with strategies to address the problem?

Even some members of the Somali community are essentially telling Ellison to f*ck off and mind his own business. They're tired of seeing their own kids being lured off to Somali by recruiters and getting blown up too.

dorajar
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Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:49 am

Do you at least acknowledge that innocent people are being targeted because of their religion and ethnicity because of the inability of many Americans to distinguish between individuals and their larger ethnic categories?

Let's put it this way. All the crazy assholes who have walked into American offices, schools, and shopping centers in the past decade and opened fire have been white dudes with guns. I propose we hold a hearing on how dangerous white male gun owners are, and ramp up paranoia and outrage against them as a general category.

Does that work for you?

thrice
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Perspective

Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:23 am

Dora, I can see that this is a complex issue that needs to have the onion peeled back a little and some deeper discussion. I'd like to drill into a couple of those issues.

First, the issue of discrimination. Organizations like CAIR and others are well financed (mainly with non-US funds) and have excellent legal teams. Certainly there are major players within those organizations who have entirely sincere and legitimate goals for their groups, and sincerely seek acceptance and equal treatment in greater American society. Those goals are laudable and entirely proper. There are also undeniable elements in those groups who are highly sympathetic to the goals and activities of murderous Jihadic conspiracy groups, and who are actively using the US legal system and media manipulation to test US responses to terror actions and to obstruct and harass legitimate attempts to investigate and disrupt the activities of those terror conspiracies. This is not speculation. The financial and personal connections between some high profile Muslim social/charitable/rights groups and terror organizations are well documented and undeniable. Until those links and connections are broken and permanently disavowed, those rights groups and their motives will be rightly subject to question.

Secondly, the methods by which US intel agencies infiltrate suspected terror networks have been rightly called into question. Accusations both true and false regularly accuse infiltrators of actively promoting terrorist violence among mosque congregations, etc who had no previous intentions of trying to harm anyone. I have no doubt that many of those accusations are true and regrettable. The fact is that intel and law enforcement groups generally use people with criminal histories and deeply flawed character as moles to plant in groups and gain information. Simply paying someone to assume this role is not enough. The "handlers" want to have consequences, i.e. a potential criminal prosecution on an unrelated matter, to hang over their informant's head as a potential consequence for double crossing their boss. Those flawed individuals nearly always go sour at some point and start lying to their handlers or crossing the line to get results, because they want to please their handlers and keep heat off themselves. As a result, they often do things while undercover that are not approved or even known of by their agency "handlers", and the results are often ugly.

Long story short, is that this is a classic guerilla style conflict. A dominant power is at war with an insurgent force that periodically strikes in an outrageous, violent manner, often at innocent noncombatant targets, and then fades back into the general population. The DP is angered and tightens down the screws on the general population, often falsely accusing innocent people of involvement in attacks. This reinforces the general view of the population of the evil intent of the DP, and creates a fertile recruiting ground for the insurgent forces to gain more allies and operatives. It can go on indefinitely. It's the oldest trick in the military book, and can be seen from early Biblical times right through Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a brilliant military strategy for a small force to use against a larger one, and the techniques are constantly being perfected while still remaining true to the very simple premise that underlies them all.

BTW, Dora, I don't see Nidal Hassan or Seung Hui-Cho on your list of white males with guns slaughtering people. Perhaps they should be added. The statement that all mass killers of the last decade have been white or male is absolutely untrue and can be easily disproven by a little Google searching. On the other hand, persons and groups who have planned and/or executed politically motivated mass attacks that have been disrupted or carried out in the US and Europe in recent years have been overwhelmingly of Middle Eastern or Eastern Bloc Muslim descent and were both coordinated and financed by international Jihadist networks.

dorajar
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Re: Perspective

Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:55 am

thrice wrote: The statement that all mass killers of the last decade have been white or male is absolutely untrue
And it's not the statement I made. I said almost all acts of domestic terrorism in the U.S. have been perpetrated by white males. Nidal Hasan is the one exception, and he was still acting independently, not as part of an overseas terrorist organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_t ... ted_States

Andrew Kehoe
James and John McNamara
Luigi Galleani
Theodore "Ted" Kaczynski
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols
Eric Robert Rudolph
Bruce Edwards Ivins
James W. Von Brunn
Nidal Malik Hasan
Andrew Joseph Stack III
Scott Roeder
Jared Lee Loughner

Plus all the boys, starting way back at Columbine, who find Daddy's guns and wander into their school yards.

thrice
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Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:57 am

There is a bar on the right side that scrolls up. I used it and found this in your post that I responded to:

"Let's put it this way. All the crazy assholes who have walked into American offices, schools, and shopping centers in the past decade and opened fire have been white dudes with guns."

dorajar
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Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:59 am

thrice wrote:There is a bar on the right side that scrolls up. I used it and found this in your post that I responded to:

"Let's put it this way. All the crazy assholes who have walked into American offices, schools, and shopping centers in the past decade and opened fire have been white dudes with guns."
A colorful description of acts of domestic terrorism, yes. What's your point?

thrice
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Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:04 pm

My point is that you did say "ALL" such acts were committed by "white dudes with guns", while ignoring the fact that two of the largest acts of mass murder, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech, were committed by non-white dudes, and one of the largest, Ft Hood, was committed by an outspoken Jihadist Muslim.

Interesting to note as well that in response to virtually all such incidents, the immediate political reaction is to call for a crackdown on all gun owners, despite the fact that 99.999 percent of them are innocent, patriotic, law abiding citizens who would never dream of committing such violence. The Muslim American community could only dream of having such a low percentage of their ranks who approve of and endorse acts of mass violence.
Last edited by thrice on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dorajar
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Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:08 pm

thrice wrote: The Muslim American community could only dream of having such a low percentage of their ranks who approve of and endorse acts of mass violence.
Oh yeah? Got citations and proof for that?

thrice
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Here's A Quick One, There Are Plenty More

Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:16 pm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... cans_N.htm

Wow. A whopping 80% of US Muslims are opposed to suicide bombing. That only leaves us 1 in 5 to worry about.


http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/ ... wards.html

Here's the view in Denmark. Lucky Danes. Only a little over 1 in 20 Danish Muslims support Al Qaeda.

dorajar
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Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:21 pm

I couldn't find that statistic in the article. The article whose headline is American Muslims reject extremes.

I did find this interesting, though:
Muslims in the USA have been under intense scrutiny since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. More than half of those surveyed say it is more difficult to be a Muslim since then and believe that the government singles them out for extra surveillance. Only 5% say they have a favorable view of al-Qaeda...
Read the book Zeitoun, then we'll talk. But you're not going to convince me to blindly hate a whole group of people with no evidence to back it up.

thrice
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Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:29 pm

No one's asking you to blindly hate anyone. But you're asking us to examine everyone for signs that they are involved in a worldwide conspiracy that is clearly being planned and carried out by members of a specific religion and overwhelmingly from a limited group of nationalities.

The Congressional hearings that started this discussion specifically are inquiring into the activities of foreign Jihadists who are targeting Americans to carry out their plots both here and abroad. The families of the dozens of Muslim young men right here in Minnesota who will likely get bits of their sons shipped home in shoeboxes from Somalia want answers. The rest of us should too. I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem with a Federal investigation of the KKK focusing primarily on white Baptist Southerners, because that's who makes up the majority of that particular threat group. The same logic applies here. It's simply stupid to assume that because an investigation focuses on a demographic group most likely to be involved that it's an unfair investigation. You don't roust Jews just to be fair when you're looking for Nazis. And if you're doing your job professionally, you take great care not to unfairly treat the vast majority of the people whose cooperation you need to find the real bad apples among them. That's professionalism, and it's what we need to employ in this difficult task.

Years ago, community members here complained that the overwhelming majority of narcotics dealing arrests were taking place in the black community, with the strong implication that the drug dealing of whites was being ignored.

A wise narcotics agent responded to a complainer. "Get your coat, and let's get in the car" he said. "Why?" asked the complainer. "Because we've going for a drive. You tell me where the white boys are standing around on the street corner, stopping everyone who walks by, and asking them to buy crack, and I'll arrest them right now, right in front of you, because those are the kinds of complaints we're responding to every single day in your community."

He got no takers.

dorajar
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Post by dorajar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:48 pm

I'm not saying legitimate threats shouldn't be pursued and investigated. I'm saying that painting all Muslim Americans with one brush in public discourse leads to things like the story that started this thread--ignorant, hateful white folk who feel they have a mission to cleanse their towns of the dehumanized "enemy." So people should watch their mouths. That's all.

thrice
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Post by thrice » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:48 pm

Agreed.

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